lancetkenyon

They blocked my number!!! Guess my 20 calls back were enough.

Speed doesn't matter for a hunting rifle.... All 6.5s are virtually the same..... 6.5x45 vs. 6.5-.300 Weatherby.... And finally....

921 yards 921 yards, different rifle, 5 shots 800 yards 4 different loads @ 608 yards 10 shots @ 400

My goal is to NOT hit one with my truck while driving. Since no one in my family has a tag this year.

A TV is cheap compared to a lot of stuff I broke as a kid. It sucks, but kids break stuff. Buy the kids a new 60" TV for Christmas that goes in the living room. Tell them Santa brought it for you to replace the one they broke.

I just let a 9 year old kid take a couple shots w. My 6.5SS pushing a 150 SMK @ 3100. No problem. Shot quite well at 200 yards.

Even past experience...from like 4 years ago....or six....

At 15, that is understandable. But, and I could be mistaken, I bet MOST adult hunters pay attention to the projected forecast, and are usually somewhat prepared. I have been on the 15 side of this too. Also, the weather service and technology are far more accurate today. A "freak" storm is rare if you pay attention to those reports and your surroundings. I have had very fast moving storms roll in, no doubt about it. But I knew there was a chance, so I was prepared. Just got here way faster than expected. I have even had reports that rain would hit by noon, and at 10AM, not a cloud in the sky. Sure enough, it was pouring by noon. "Cotton kills" if you are unprepared with proper outer wear/base layers or a lack of respect for Mother Nature. Stupidity (or inexperience/ignorance) kills just as fast as cotton, if not faster. Not saying anyone is stupid, so don't even start.

To a certain extent. But, I have guns that will shoot in the .2-.3s, every time I get behind it. Every time. On range trips, I have had those guns, and been shooting .2s. Shoot another gun....and had 4" groups at 100 yards. That is not "the shooter". That is a bad load in a rifle. My customs, even with factory loads (in rifles I have chambered with a cartridge that HAS factory loads available), will still shoot sub-MOA with most of them. But not all.

My vice is shooting and guns. So I spend accordingly. I have some cheap guns that shoot well. They are mainly reserved for loaners. But customs are where I reach when I go shooting or hunting. Smoother actions, built how I want them built, in chamberings I wanted. Look how I want. Triggers that I want. Twist rates that I want. Features that I want. Have scopes that I want. I want my rifles to shoot the bullets that I want. I want those bullets to go where I want them to as far as possible. Cheap guns can get you there. But the difference is like the following: Ford Fiesta or Ford GT? 1970 Datsun or Ford F250 Super Duty crew cab 4x4 diesel? 1 man tent or 35' 5th wheel? Mtn bike or Polaris Ranger? Schlitz Malt Liquor or a fine wine? Singlewide trailer or the mansion on the hill? Tasco or Tangent Theta? Bologna sammich on Wonderbread or 2" thick USDA Prime ribeye? Inner tube or 22' Ranger? Call it vanity, call it wanting the finer things in life, call it blowing your money. Potato, potato. We all have our voices in life. We all have that itch we need to scratch.

I got a text from a fellow member alerting me to an event hosted by AZGFD in conjunction with the Peregrine Fund California Condor Restoration Project to test out various factory ammunition types in a research and informational effort to educate hunters in the use of non-lead bullets. Allen Zufelt, the California Condor Coordinator w. AZGFD, and Chris Parish, the Condor Project Coordinator w. The Peregrine Fund were out there to represent and coordinate the shooting today. Both guys are avid hunters, conservationists, and sportsmen, and are truly passionate about wildlife. They did a great job of educating and putting on the event. Bringing water, donuts, and some amazing home made breakfast burritos, along with supplying targets, and all ammunition to be tested in a variety of rifles in 7mm Rem Mag and .223. Both traditional lead cup and core types, and a couple different non-lead cartridges. There was a total of 12 shooters who participated today, I think 3 of us with 7 Rem Mags, and the rest with .223s, I think all of which were AR platforms, which is a fantastic sporting platform for varmints and small to medium thin-skinned large game animals. The testing was done shooting 3 rounds of each type of ammo for group size to determine accuracy potential in an attempt to dispel the myth of copper bullets being less accurate as traditional lead core bullets. All were factory ammo available to anyone from local sources, (Cabela's and Sportsman's supplied the ammo). From the cheapest Remington Corelokt to some Barnes TSX rounds, and I recognized some Swift Scirocco in my group, and some Winchester Power Points too. The .223s had a combo of similar rounds. No varmint bullets were used in this testing today. We had a brief meeting about range safety, etc. and a good discussion about the birds of prey lethality rate from ingesting lead fragments from carcasses and gut piles. Since the California Condor is up around the Grand Canyon, they are of big concern. Especially discussed was the topic of the voluntary use of non-lead ammunition on the Kaibab and Strip hunts in 12AE, 12AW, 12B, 13A, 13B. Unfortunately, I thoroughly cleaned all my rifles last weekend. So I had cold clean bores on my rifles today. But my 7RM did fairly well for a clean bore and using factory ammo not shot in my rifle before. We shot for groups, 3 rounds per ammo type. Shoot 2 groups of 3 then let the barrel cool while we changed out targets and repeat w. 5 different types of ammo. I have not seen the data, but results collected showed copper bullets performed on par, if not slightly better, than the jacketed lead bullets. Could be a number for reasons for this, but it is as conclusive as possible with 5 ammo types and 12 shooters. I think I kept everything under 1.5" (the Swift Scirocco w. the cold/clean bore shot), with a three groups sub-MOA. After shooting for groups, we moved on to hydrostatic shock testing of both types of bullets by shooting into six 1 gallon jugs of water in a row to check for penetration. Also, shooting into ballistic gel blocks. I got to shoot for the 7 Rem Mag rounds, and another shooter shot the .223 rounds. It was pretty cool, and very informative. See photos below of bullet conditions after recovery, and the ballistic gel wound channel results. Chris w. the Peregrine Fund lecturing on the Condor, and the issues they face. Allen w. Some of the shooters Shooting at the bench rest range Here is the Barnes 160 TSX recovered from the 5th gallon jug of water Here are a couple views of the Remington 150 Corelokt fired into ballistic gel and the wound channel Note all of the small lead fragments that peel off the bullet during the course of the travel. 21" of penetration at 100 yards, looks like the bullet started expansion at about 2" of penetration. Most hydrostatic shock in the first 12-14" and then a path to 21". I blew the 1st block out of the container and it hit the ground. That is the reason for the brown colored block. The 150 Corelokt as it came to rest at 21" Close up of the lead fragments This is the .223 55gr Barnes TSX bullet ballistic gel test. The light bullet, probably somewhere around 3100-3200fps penetrated about 2-3" deeper than the 150 7mm Corelokt. Then we switched the 7mm test. Jacketed lead 150gr. Corelokt into six 1 gallon water jugs. This is the lead fragments recovered from the water jugs. The jacket totally separated from the lead core and the lead disintegrated, most within the first two jugs. The jacket made it to the 4th jug. Here is the 160 Barnes TSX ballistic gel wound channel A full 32"+ of penetration. Looks like expansion started in about 3-4", with most hydrostatic shock in the first 12'14", then a twisted path like a broadhead the rest of the way through. You can see the twisting path of the petals I am not sure if the first wound channel from the 150 Corelokt helped with the path of penetration, as the 160 TSX was just above the original path. The 160 TSX was poking out the back of the ballistic block after 32" of penetration, and it was facing backwards. The 150 Corelokt jacket from the water jug test on left, the 160 TSX from ballistic gel on right 160 TSX from ballistic gel Corelokt retained weight from water jug test I cut out the 150 Corelokt bullet from the ballistic gel test 160 TSX Weight retention from the ballistic gel test Weight retention of the 150 Corelokt from the ballistic gel test The 150 Corelokt particles recovered from the water jug test Weight retention of the 160 TSX from the water jug test A huge thanks to AZGFD and the Peregrine Fund for putting on the demonstration and information. Take the photos I supplied for what they are worth. My thoughts in closing. We all strive for the most accurate bullets, and best on game performance to cleanly take the game we pursue. Be it ballistic coefficient, bullet construction, accuracy, weight vs. velocity, etc. that sway your choice, for certain areas of the state, we need to consider the use of non-lead bullets to help conservation efforts. Mainly the lead ingestion from birds of prey/raptors. Especially the endangered and protected species. I don't want this to turn into a debate on which bullet is better, which bullets have issues, etc. ALL bullets can fail. For me personally, I have used non-lead bullets in the past with amazing results. I switched mainly due to the less than stellar BC of those bullets, and trying to use the same load for hunting and shooting very long range for fun. Lower BC bullets do not fare as well in the long range game. But I will be starting some load development using some non-lead bullets for my rifles. Those rounds will have their place and purpose, and I will not use them exclusively. But for closer shots (500-700 yards dependent on cartridge), I would consider these a viable solution for high velocity rounds. Look for load development threads once I start. Since Taylor has a 12AE late hunt, we might just get to utilize one this year on game!!!

You can look into Hammer bullets too. They are supposed to be very accurate, and have some heavier offerings, but they require faster twist rates than standard. https://hammerbullets.com/shop/

Bringing this back up after the new thread brought the subject back to light. Taylor wound up killing her muley on her hunt at 637 yards using my 6.5 SLR pushing a 127 BArnes LRX @ 3050fps. The deer litterally dropped in his tracks. DRT. Not even a twitch. The bullet entered the onside shoulder and broke it, shattered a vertebra, and existed the offside shoulder. Lungs were mush.

I think IA Born is a biologist that works with AZGFD? He is very passionate about this subject. I went to a shoot put on by the AZGFD & The Peregrine Fund, and it was informative. http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/67198-azgfd-ammunition-testing-event-today/?hl=%2Bperegrine+%2Bfund

I have some old ones of my older daughter, and some others from both my daughters and my nephew. My nephew's first ever dove. About an hour of slaying doves with my two girls Taylor's first ever dove My older daughter, Paige, and I on a goat hunt. It rained 6" this day. Was miserable, and dangerous with mudslides. But we had a blast. Paige with her first elk Varmint hunting The ONLY fish we caught that day....and Taylor gets a 4.5#er.

Most anything in the .223, .243, .257, .264, .277, .284, .308, .338 family. That should about cover it. In all seriousness, anything from a .243 Win to a .300RUM will kill a Coues a long way out as long as YOU can put the bullet into the small vital zone. My only Coues was taken with a 7STW way back when.

Wow. Just wow.

28 Nosler is a 7mm.....on steroids. Pushes a 195 @ 3020-3150fps. Pushes a 180 @ 3080-3200+. Based off the 404 Jeffery case shortened and with 35* shoulder. Beltless magnum, slightly rebated rim. Case length is actually slightly longer @ 2.590" vs. 2.500" for the 7RM. Great round. I am not a gunsmith. I enjoy accuracy and reloading. And I shoot...a lot.

If you need any more, I have about 700 sitting in my reloading desk.

APA Fat Bastard Badger Thruster Hawkins 3 Port Piercision Muscle Brake Southern Xpress

Either can be pushed to run 3100+. I don't see the SAUM giving up 100fps to the WSM. I have a 6.5SS. The black sheep brother to the 6.5 GAP 4S (SAUM). I can run a hot 150 @ 3150fps when I lean on it. That is my long range load. I am working on a 140 @ about the same to save on some case life though. Mine shoots pretty well too. Only 3 shots though w.150 SMKs.

I have never seen a processor trailer up there. Plenty of dispersed dry camping spots. The good ones fill up fast. I usually camp off the 205. Jacob's Lake and Demotte Park (halfway to the North Rim) both have diesel, but they are proud of it. Be prepared to pay $.50-1.00 more a gallon than the Valley. Talk to someone who has hunted in in the past and hope they give you some good starting points. I won't give them out on an open forum for all to see....

1:10" twist?