audsley

I guess my concern is how long will it be before the landowner decides he doesn't want to allow any access.

Since all the places mentioned already get a lot of hunters, I'm not sure alot of damage was done. I'm surprised no one mentioned Peppersauce or Charoleau Gap. There's also a lot of deer in both those places and a lot of hunters. Now if you really want a memorable Coues hunt, put on some big boy pants and hike up Edgar Canyon to the Peck Basin, traveling as light as possible with a backpack. There should be water available in places at least for a while longer. This is prime Coues country, and you'll have it mostly to yourself. Unless the rut is on, anything you hear about 110-point bucks running around in the heavily hunted areas should probably be discounted 15 to 20 %. A friend of mine who retired from Game & Fish and is a solid Coues expert tried to help a friend from out of state in Buehman Canyon a couple of Decembers ago. They found bucks, but nothing big. My friend had hoped some big bucks would come down into upper Buehman looking for does but eventually concluded that there were enough small bucks around to take care of the does and that any big bucks up in the remote side canyons were finding enough does that they didn't need to move. Two bits of advice: Hunt the mesquites for big bucks, and always take a lion tag. My son glassed one up today in 33 while helping on a juniors hunt. The Catalinas and Rincons are loaded with lions.

Get comfortable. We're gonna be here a while. First, you'll want to take a saw like .270 mentioned plus a good skinning knife, 2 or 3 short bunjee cords, nylon cord and game bags. If you don't have all of these things, you'll pay a price for having gone under-prepared. After you've field-dressed it, hang the deer in a tree by the hind legs with a cord tired through the gambrel (inside the leg tendon below the knee.) Use your skinning knife to take off the hide and the saw to remove the lower front legs below the knees. If it's a small buck and your saw is up to it, you can try sawing the skull plate and keeping only the antlers for evidence of legality, but I've always just taken the whole head. When the hide and front lower legs are off, you're going to cut the deer in half. I cut it just ahead of where the rump-thigh muscle ends up near the spine. Cut crossways through the meat and spinal cord. The vertebrae will separate after the surrounding meat is cut through and you've twisted the around a few times. All this should take less than an hour from the time the field dressing starts. It should all be done in the shade. At this point you need to gauge the conditions for the trip back. By conditions, I mean the trade-off between leaving sooner with a heavier load vs. spending more time butchering to get rid of a little more weight. You can even go further with the butchering by removing the loins from along the spine and the neck meat, allowing the spine and rib cage to be discarded, or you can move out immediately with those items still part of the load. Because I'm not an experienced butcher, I always just accept the extra weight. However, a fellow named Bill Quimby once - 26 years ago to be exact - told me that a rod saw (goes on a coping or hack saw frame and is used for cutting circles in ceramic tile, such as around a toilet phlange) works really well to take meat off of bones including around the vertebrae and even along the ribs if you want rib meat. Rod saw blades are flexible and weigh nothing. Every time I have a deer down on a backpack hunt I wish I'd brought one. If you're one guy alone and have a complete backpack camp plus rifle and optics, you'll almost certianly need two trips. The deer alone is a full load for most guys. Take your camping and hunting gear first because it's probably less safe out there than your deer meat. While it's possible your deer could be bothered by some scrounging bobcat, skunk or ringtail, I personally haven't had any serious problems with deer meat left in a tree in a game bag, even overnight. But make sure it's in a game bag. That way, if something does try to feed on it, the game bag limits them to where they've chewed a hole through the bag and most of the meat will remain unharmed. Unless it's really warm, a deer can hang in the shade all day. Cool air, shade and wind are your friends. Sunlight, warmth and flies are your enemies. Hang the two pieces well off the ground where they'll still be in the shade in the morning if you think you'll be gone that long. If it's a good buck with antlers other people might like to have, take the head and cape with you. It's doubtful anyone would bother the meat especially if they have no way of knowing how long it's been there. Then get back to your backpack camp and get your tent, sleeping bag, cooking gear, gun, optics and all the rest of your gear and hike it to your truck and lock it up. If daytime high temps are expected to be in the 80s or above, don't attempt a hunt like this. That's the time for truck camping and limiting how far from a road you hunt. Stay where you can drag the deer to a road and get it in the truck in 3 hours or less and have plenty of ice. High temps in the 70s aren't a big problem as long as you keep the deer in the shade when it's not traveling. When you pull it out of the shade to travel with it, try to keep up a good pace as it will be warmed some by your body and most likely youll be walking in the sun quite a bit. A backpack hunt that requires 3 or more hours to reach your campsite should probably be a two-man, one-tag hunt, and definitely only one rifle. Maybe things are just looking harder to me now that I'm older, but that's how I see it.

Dang! Lance beat me to it! Here's the law. Note words in boldface: 17-304. Prohibition by landowner upon hunting; posting; exception A. Landowners or lessees of private land who desire to prohibit hunting, fishing or trapping on their lands without their written permission shall post such lands closed to hunting, fishing or trapping using notices or signboards. B. State or federal lands including those under lease may not be posted except by consent of the commission. C. The notices or signboards shall meet all of the following criteria: 1. Be not less than eight inches by eleven inches with plainly legible wording in capital and bold-faced lettering at least one inch high. 2. Contain the words "no hunting", "no trapping" or "no fishing" either as a single phrase or in any combination. 3. Be conspicuously placed on a structure or post at least four feet above ground level at all points of vehicular access, at all property or fence corners and at intervals of not more than one-quarter mile along the property boundary, except that a post with one hundred square inches or more of orange paint may serve as the interval notices between property or fence corners and points of vehicular access. The orange paint shall be clearly visible and shall cover the entire aboveground surface of the post facing outward and on both lateral sides from the closed area. D. The entry of any person for the taking of wildlife shall not be grounds for an action for trespassing unless the land has been posted pursuant to this section.

Where is it written that private land owners are supposed to grant access across their private property when it's the only access point available?

Before getting too wrapped up in maps, I'd suggest calling the Region V Game & Fish office to find out what access routes are currently open. I'm assuming you're hunting whitetail, which means you're probably looking at the Mule Mtns around Bisbee or the Dragoons. Both are tough for access, with the Mules probably the worst. Maps are wonderful, but they don't show you where the padlocked gates are. You will run into a lot of locked gates in this part of the state.

Access into the Doz Cabezas can be problematic unless he you know the right people.

Here's the problem with a poll like this. If you're going home from the White Mtns and live in the Phoenix area, you'll turn right on 60 and stop at one of the places along that route. If you're headed back to Tucson, you'll turn left and eat at that place on the south side of the road. I've forgotten the name of it, but don't need to remember since it's the only Mexican restaurant between 60/77 and 77. It's good enough that you don't need to go out of your way to eat somewhere else. This skews the results unless you make the poll for Phoenix people only. They're the only ones who really have any choice that's worth making.

There are a lot of incidents you don't read or hear about. And then there are some you do. Check out this one from last year. http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive....id=2009_4815295 I don't think you can say sportsmen are never bothered. Friends of mine have been robbed, and I've heard of hunters being kidnapped for ransom despite having what they thought were important connections.

While I have some reservations about this legislation, I cannot begin to understand why anyone would associate it with landowner tags. I wish whoever is spreading that idea would come out in the open so we can talk to them and, if necessary, get them the psychiatric help they need, because that's just crazy.

Got to love this statement in the Az Daily Sun article: OVERGRAZED BY ELK Conservation biologists disagree, saying the Southwest needs a much larger wolf population to ensure the species' genetic diversity. Such scientists also say a healthy population of wolves could revive Arizona landscapes, which have been overgrazed by elk and deer in nearly a century-long absence of significant predators. And all this time I had thought cattle and drought were the problem. No, apparently it was AGFD issuing two few deer and elk permits. I guess hunters aren't significant predators.

What's in the water down here that makes CDB the way they are? Money. See the Karen Budd-Falen report for details. Also, having an activist lifestyle and not having to work for a living. The internal discussion about AWF's relationship with sportsmen and sportsmen-conservation groups has already started. This is gonna take a while.

John, I have to disagree with something you just said. "The general public is in no way offended by what we are doing... they have no clue about anything the department is or does." Beg to differ. The general public knows a lot of things about the department. If you don't believe me, read the comments that follow any story about wildlife in the Phoenix or Tucson newspapers, especially any story that's controversial. For instance, they know that the department and commission is controlled by good old boys for the benefit of hunters and ranchers. They know that corruption and ineptitude killed the last jaguar in Arizona, and that Game & Fish won't do anything about the idiotic hunters who were out shooting near their property last weekend. They know, because PEER's press release told them so in the Arizona Daily Star, that the Kofa Refuge is being managed as a game farm for the benefit of hunters and to the detriment of people who appreciate natural ecological systems. They know that hunters are tearing up landscapes with ATVs and shooting holes in saguaros and killing wildlife illegally because the newspapers tell them that (using, by the way, press releases from the department.) If the comment thread is long enough, you will inevitably see a complaint about how AGFD is spending his or her tax dollars, and no one ever corrects that statement. About one in five comments is semi-intelligent and maybe one in 15 truly informative, but that's your public, and if you don't think they know a lot about Game & Fish and hunters, just ask them. It's true that sportsmen pay most of the bills, but that's still a secret among most of the public. Another secret is that America's wildlife is probably in better shape than that of any other developed country. Unfortunately, much of what the public believes reflects the output of the Green Machine, whose propaganda mill convinces donors that things are terribly broken and will get worse if someone doesn't write them a check immediately. They and animal rights groups have the active cooperation and assistance of the mainstream media. Sportsmen don't. Fact: Responsive Management found that 46% of respondents (which included hunters) believes that modern, regulated hunting is causing some species to become endangered. Yes, there's a lot of common "knowledge" out there. Politics is like chess. An aggressive move can cost you an important piece if you haven't studied the board carefully enough. Note that Daniel Patterson has started a bill in the house of represenatives to change Game & Fish to something else. It won't go anywhere for now, but that might not be the case in two to four years. Institutionalizing sportsmen's dominance of the game & fish commission would make it an appealing political target for "reform." I also believe that sportsmen should only go to the legislature as a last resort. The legislature is like the neighborhood loan shark - the interest is high, and they will be repaid. This has been a tough one for me because I know AzSFW worked hard on it with the best intentions. What will be represented in the press as an aggressive move is actually a defensive play aimed at preventing serious losses of freedom and hunting opportunity in the near future. However, I just don't believe this proposed remedy will serve us well in the long run. As an AWF board member along with BonusPointJohn and PaysonBrad, I also dislike not supporting another group's efforts, especially when AWF has put forth no solutions of our own to protect the future of hunting and fishing. We've already begun talking about that. If this bill becomes law and is a long-term success, I'll be happy to say I was wrong in predicting that it will be more trouble than it's worth and might even lead to disaster.

Hunters I've talked to so far have mixed feelings about this, as do I. The FS is re-building two places along that road that have probably discouraged a lot of hunters from going into the Charoleau Gap area, which is prime Coues country. Quads could and did go around the bad spots, so the area was only really open to 4WD adventurers and people on quads. I've done it in a shortbed Toyota but didn't enjoy it a bit. In fact, at the lower one there was oil on the rocks where someone had apparently punctured an oil pan. I'm a hunter, not a 4WD technical expert, and I don't own a quad, so I was discouraged from going there because of the road. Assuming there are others like me, the bad road probably served to keep hunter densities low in that area, and those who are accustomed to hunting there probably aren't happy about the change. On the other hand, legal access to the forest is a serious problem and isn't getting any better. There aren't many motorized access points for the Coronado Nat. Forest, and not even that many walk-in places. This causes hunter over-crowding in the places that do have access. At the Coronado FS planning meetings, the public told the FS that access was its chief concern. Looks like they're doing something about that by taking a road that previously was usable by only a select few and making it usable for everyone. I'm not mad at the FS for doing this. I believe we'll just have to be vigilant to littering, off-roading driving (illegal under travel mgmt rules) and other irresponsbile behaviors and demand that AGFD, the FS and the sheriff's dept. be available to respond to reports of violations by cell phone. (Cell phone service should be available for the first few miles of the route.)

You asked about on-line water flows. Yes, the site below. Don't expect fishable flows for quite a while. Maybe early May, but more likely mid-May this year I would think. Lots of snow to get rid of. Old timers told me the river can stay flooded during runoff and then suddenly drop some time in May. Then it's fishable. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/az/nwis/current/?type=flow And you don't need a boat to get away from the crowds. First of all, there aren't any crowds. On holiday weekends and at prime time in May, you'll find a few camps scattered along the river around Ten o' Diamonds and a few trucks at White Crossing and near the pump station, but the Black River is not a crowded place. You need to go there and see for yourself. You've already gotten away from the crowds just by getting to the river. The fish move upstream as the water warms. Trout and smallmouth are mixed in some areas. Other areas are mostly or entirely one or the other.

Not that there aren't people on this site who can tell you about the Black River, but you might want to get acquainted with this site: http://www.azflyandtie.com/flyforum/forumdisplay.php?f=8 These guys are a bit more specialized. I don't know whether your principal interest is in running the water and doing a little fishing at the same time, or if you're more serious about the fishing and just wondered if a canoe would help. Everyone who likes to stream fish should visit the reservation stretches of the Black River, and a canoe isn't needed.

Unless you want lots of company and gunfire all around you, PM me and I"ll tell you where a large herd hangs out. I'm giving you an unusual benefit since you're new to the area.

Red Rabbit, I believe there will be a turkey survey in that area in April. If so, it's a great campout with a lot of volunteers and AGFD guys, and you'll basically have about 30 guys scouting for you. The WM for that unit has retired, but I'll let you know if they're having it and when if you'd like to come. I certainly would if I had that tag and the time to make the trip.

Last April I joined a lot of other volunteers and AGFD personnel in putting crappie beds along the shore line. Don't worry that you weren't there to see where the structure went in. It's everywhere we could squeeze some in.

So you got a Goulds tag in SE Az?

2nd Amendment Sports on Pima in Tucson (the old Jensens.) Frank Wells is one of the best. Should cost you around $50

I really don't know the answer to the first question, but I do believe predators have a very significant impact on deer populations when deer populations are already low. When you have only a few deer to reproduce, each doe and fawn are precious. When the numbers get near carrying capacity it doesn't matter so much. It's true that the public and press will not tolerate govt-sponsored predator reduction control. For that matter, they won't allow govts to kill off ferral horses and burros either. In Australia, the press and animal sentimentalists have been blocking govt efforts to kill off some of the approximately 1 million camels that are roaming the outback and destroying everything. In short, the public does not approve of the govt killing mammals, and efforts to do so are always a rallying (and fundraising) opportunity for ARs and greenies. (Pardon the redundancy.) I don't believe predator hunters have much effect on prevent fawn predation. That's mainly because taking a coyote out of the habitat is like pulling your finger out of a bucket of water and trying to see the hole. Other coyotes will quickly migrate in and re-populate the area. There is a theory that if you whack coyotes hard right before the fawn drop, you might succeed in giving the fawns some relief just long enough that they can become old enough to flee. I believe research has shown this to be true, and it's used as a justification for aerial gunning of coyotes, especially to protect antelope fawns. Ranchers pay the federal government to shoot coyotes right before the calf drop, but unfortunately that's about 2 months ahead of antelope fawn drops and 3 or 4 months ahead of deer births, so it doesn't do us much good. At least the ranchers don't have to announce it publicly in advance and get people stirred up. If only AGFD could operate like that.

My son is very happy with his 4.5x14 Zeiss Conquest. He's had it for 2 years.

If MathewP45 is talking about the people I think he is, they're great. The guy is or was a butcher at Basha's when we used him a few years back for a couple of elk and an antelope. They have a small sign out in front of their house which is out past the airport. I want to say it's something like Rim Country Meat. They do an outstanding job.

Az Game & Fish Commissioner Bob Hernbrode's term expires at the end of this year. Governor Brewer needs to fill the vacancy by either re-appointing Commissioner Hernbrode to a second term or by appointing a replacement. This is for what has traditionally been southern Arizona's commission seat. Az Sportsmen for Wildlife is hosting a forum for Game & Fish Commission applicants next Tuesday evening, November 3, at the PSE plant (archery equipment manufacturer) at 2727 N. Fairview in Tucson. The event is scheduled for 5:30 to 8 p.m. Candidates will introduce themselves and give their responses to some previously provided questions. If time allows candidates may be asked questions from the floor. Upon arriving all attendees will be given a ballot. At the conclusion of the forum, attendees will be asked to turn in the ballots listing their first, second and third choices for commissioner. Ballots will be secret. Obviously this vote is not binding on the governor's selection, but it is AzSFW's intention to tell the governor how the attending sportsmen ranked the candidates. This forum is open to all licensed hunters and anglers in Arizona. Feel free to bring a fellow hunter or angler. Your voter registration card is your hunting or fishing license. The candidates are: Greg Lucero, Democrat Santa Cruz County Manager Ted H. Noon, Republican, Pima County (Arivaca) Assistant State Veterinarian Donnelly Andrew Dybus, Independent, Tucson Attorney at Buchalter Nemer John Harris, Independent Police Chief, Town of Sahuarita Jack Williams, Independent, Sierra Vista Retired Graham County Attorney Bob Hernbrode, Democrat, Tucson Retired wildlife biologist seeking re-appointment to a second term I'm hoping some of you who post on this forum will take the time to come down and meet the candidates as well as some of your fellow sportsmen who are active in conservation work. You might even catch a glimpse of CMC. PSE is located on the west side of Fairview between Grant and Glenn. Do not use the south entrance near the pro shop and archery range as it will probably be locked. Go to the north parking lot entrance and come into the second big building from the north, entering that building from the breezeway at the north end of the building.