CouesWhitetail

I won't be there for the shoot, but I am going fishing at sunrise on Thurs/friday. Anyone coming up on Thurs? We will probably be leaving by noon on Friday. I will be leaving in a few mins to do some owl work and then heading to Sunrise directly from there. So I won't be back to check this thread. If anyone is going to be there thurs afternoon/fri morning and wants to get together to say howdy. Call my cell 928-200-0544. I will be at the sunrise campground. You can always just look for the maroon jeep with the CouesWhitetail.com sticker on it too. Amanda

I think they are bots from search engines. They are automatically coming around and cataloging all the discussions for their search engine database. So if someone searched for unit 36c in arizona or something like that in yahoo you might pull up a thread from here. Amanda

Wow Danny, that is some serious news! I hope you guys get to go! Amanda

Thanks for the comments! I made another version of the owl video with some more dreamlike and dramatic music. Let me know which version you like better. here is when owls dream 2. Http://www.coueswhitetail.com/video_clips/...wls_dream_2.wmv Amanda

Come on Bill, you did take some pictures for us didn't you?? I hope so..... Welcome back. Must have been a great time. Amanda

here is the letter to the dept from the AZ Deer Association. June 25th, 2007 Mr. Duane Shroufe, Director Arizona Game & Fish Department 2221 W. Greenway Road Phoenix, AZ, 85023 Re: 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 Hunt Guidlines Dear, Director Shroufe A number of Arizona Deer Association (ADA) members participated in the recently held 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 Hunt Guideline meetings. Quite a few of our members have emailed and phoned with their comments. Additionally, during our last board of directors meeting on June 19th, another discussion about the proposed hunt guidelines took place with Game Branch Chief Leonard Ordway. He was able to provide some answers for the ADA board and more importantly department justification for some of the proposed changes. This letter is a reflection of all of those discussions and opinions. As ADA President I was asked to write a letter addressing our thoughts and concerns. I have found it difficult to do so for a number of reasons, important among them is because I believe many of the proposed hunt changes are based on department perceptions gathered from your late 2006 statewide hunter’s survey. This is a survey some active sportsmen have questions about; and while I am not speaking for anyone other than the ADA, I believe other sportsmen conservation organizations may feel much the same as the ADA. Some of us are asking ourselves if we are really out of touch with the majority of sportsmen in Arizona. When active sportsmen discuss these issues, we are very much in agreement and yet we seem out of step with some department recommendations. Are we out of touch; or rather is it the hunter’s survey and the questions which were asked, the way they were asked, and the conclusions which were perhaps made by the agency to justify its direction? This issue needs to be reconciled if individual sportsmen and organized sportsmen conservation organizations are going to understand it and accept it. We realize you are using this survey to not only justify some of the hunt season recommendations; but also to help guide the direction of the agency into the future. More important than the individual hunt guideline recommendations is what is working within the agency to move this new direction? Some of us were in attendance at the Wildlife Conservation Council meeting when Wildlife Division Chief Bruce Taubert discussed a program he was asked to develop for the International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. To me, his program presented a clear message, and it advised wildlife agencies whenever possible to move away from controversial management issues which may not be accepted by the public. Instead of agencies taking on the tough job of educating the public, just reduce the controversial activity or do away with it all together. An example of this direction is the abandonment of what some call “Trophy Hunting”. I personally prefer to call it “Quality Hunting”. None-the-less it is far easier to justify hunting for the table or “the experience” than it is for obtaining an animal to hang on the wall as a remembrance of a great hunt. Again, the easy direction for the agency is to take the “Quality Hunts”, faze them out and eliminate them. If the agency chose this plan they could offer additional permits, which would take place earlier or later (depending on deer or elk) in the fall season, and at a time when mature older age class animals are not as active. This allows for more hunter opportunity, less bucks or bulls taken and more revenue for the agency. This is clearly where the department has chosen to go! This change of direction also play’s well when discussing the new buzz phrase “hunter recruitment and retention”. While everyone in the hunting circle understands the necessity of recruiting new hunters and keeping the current ones involved, we probably will not be in complete agreement on how to do it. Some of us are puzzled, for we believe opportunities are present for all hunters to hunt deer in Arizona. Some hunts are never fully subscribed during the first drawing and do not fill until the secondary draw. Reality is, we have too many people in Arizona wanting to hunt and not enough resources for all of them. Add to that the non-residents wanting to hunt in many of our best units and you have a situation where it will take you quite a few years to draw that special permit. Yes, it is frustrating, but most of us grind it out and can accept not drawing that special tag. If not, we leave Arizona and go where we can hunt. To those who do not hunt outside of Arizona, there is still the opportunity to hunt deer even if it is not in their preferred unit. For recruitment sake, we understand the need for more hunting opportunity. Clearly the agency is moving that direction by providing more opportunity for youth and for all big game species. For years the department has managed conservatively for desert bighorn, turkey, antelope and some alternative deer hunts. As the push for more opportunity progresses, we now hear the agency justifying the changes by speaking of how low we can go in buck to doe ratios or bull to cow ratios without compromising reproductive capability. This discussion in the guidelines has us concerned to the point we believe the department must insure these wildlife species will not only survive, but they may also continue to grow in numbers when conditions allow it. Since Arizona is comprised largely of marginal habitat for many species we must insure more than adequate monitoring and surveys are done to support management recommendations. At no time can we jeopardize any species because of a lack of good solid data or for the sake of hunter opportunity. For many ADA members hunter retention is another huge issue. What is important to them is getting to do what they value most. Some are interested mainly in preserving their annual family deer hunt. Others want to be able to hunt in their preferred unit or with a weapon of choice. Some want only to hunt big bucks, both whitetails and mule deer, during the rut. A few don’t care and just simply want to go some place in Arizona each year to hunt, period. Under the new proposed guidelines the department is continuing to take away from the rut season “Quality Hunts”. You are squeezing those hunters out in favor of the out of rut seasons. This works against retention of those individuals. Not many serious coues deer hunters or diehard archery elk hunters are going to put in for a hunt without the magic of the rut. It is too bad this penalty has to be paid by some of the department’s most ardent supporters. I guarantee you they will go other places to enjoy what they value most. How far is the department and commission willing to go in removing the opportunity to hunt in the rut? Last year when the archers protested the department’s changes to the September archery elk hunts, the furor from sportsmen got the commission to back down. However the department is back again this year with November archery elk seasons scheduled on a trial basis? What is next, a trial August season? We are steadily cutting the percentage of December whitetail hunts, are you planning to go even lower? We all understand “incrementalism” and if that is where we are going then please just state it. It is extremely important that the department lay it on the line with sportsmen. We have been your strongest supporters. After the recent public meetings some felt as if the department went through the motions to satisfy your public obligations. At the Phoenix meeting, and I understand at some of the other public meetings as well, the staff wrote down comments, but did not even ask for consensus from those in attendance. Just how does the department plan to utilize this information? What weight can the agency possibly give to an individual comment? At the very least why didn’t the department ask for consensus from the group in attendance at these meetings? The department and commission are dramatically changing the Arizona hunt and hunt season structure as we have known them. As you continue to lower buck to doe ratios you may well be cutting into the reproductive capability of these game species. We are fast becoming just another state when it comes to managing for older age class animals. In closing the ADA believes the department needs to actively work with all interested sportsmen and sportsmen conservation organizations to carefully and fully explain where you are taking this agency. Your efforts to educate us and our organizations have fallen short or may not be completely understood. While much needs to be done to recruit new hunters and retain current hunters; we must also insure what we are changing and trying to preserve is worth our efforts. Working for Wildlife and Sportsmen Pete Cimellaro, President Arizona Deer Association CC: Steve Ferrell, Deputy Director AZGFD Leonard Ordway, Game Branch Chief

I wondered the same thing. I checked out one of the IP addresses from a "guest" and it was from a search engine. Perhaps they were just search engine spiders that counted as guests? Maybe the latest software upgrade changes how those are counted. Amanda

Blaine Bickford asked me to post his comments that he sent to the dept. Blaine also attended the commission meeting in Payson and took the opportunity to share his comments during the "call to the public". Thank you Blaine. Blaine is an active conservationist that lives up in the Springerville area. Blaine encourages everyone to continue to send in your comments even though the official deadline to submit them was yesterday. here is his letter. And thanks to all those who took the time to send in their thoughts to AGFD. To: Arizona Game and Fish Commission Michael M. Golightly-Chairman William H. Mclean Bob Hernbrode Jennifer L. Martin Robert R. Woodhouse Regarding: 2008-2009 / 2009-2010 Hunt Guidelines This document represents only my personal opinions, thoughts, comments, beliefs and recommendations as they apply to the current proposals for the guidelines for game management. Thank you in advance for taking your time to review this material. 1. A false sense of security in the foundation of Hunters wanting more “OPPORTUNITY” 2. Polarized Goals 3. Short term Hero status for more “OPPORTUNITY”; long term potential for disaster 4. Recruitment/ Retention- wrong target of population for success 5. Value of resources diminished to the point that the Public Trust Doctrine does not apply and the North American Model for Wildlife Management is gone 6. Emphasize on “OPPORTUNITY” for small game, non-game, predators and others 7. Cooperative work efforts with “VALUED PARTNERS” 8. Over the counter Turkey and Archery Deer tags and the potential permitted hunts and existing hunts 9. How does this advance the Department goal of making everything “Simpler and Consistent” 10. Wildlife resource damage and loss of value to hunting and non-hunting public. 11. Time for comments: effectively fractures “Valued Partners” • Individual effectiveness for well thought-out recommendations 12. My brain-storming suggestions for recommendations • The foundation of the Department’s recommendations and management plans are based upon incomplete information as supplied by hunters during the survey where they checked the yes box for wanting more “opportunity”. This foundation is unstable, treacherous and insecure. This plan is 90-95% social/political and 5-10% biology. While we all want more opportunity to have a tag(s) the survey allowed no place to explain that we will not sacrifice the over all health of a species/herd nor the individuals making up this group/structure for the end result of “opportunity”. This approach supplied an extremely simplistic answer to a very complex and detailed situation. In other words, in-accurate and in-complete information into the equation and the same coming out. A foundation designed to collapse. We were not allowed to explain that we will not sacrifice the quality of the experience while we are in the field either. The quality of the whole experience involves the being with nature, friends, family and other complex issues of hunting but also being able to observe the species (and other wildlife) we have a tag for in adequate numbers and an a regular basis, not just seeing one or two animals/birds with no chance to harvest an animal/bird IF WE CHOOSE. • Polarizing Goals; when we set goals at such extremes there is only one direction the over-all effect can end up and that is a long term negative for the wildlife resource(s), the quality of the experience for the hunters and the goal of recruitment/retention. I will use data as presented at the Public Meetings for Mule Deer but appears to apply to the FOUNDATIONAL PHILOSIOPHSY for the proposed “Guidelines” for most all species. With buck to doe ratios set at 10-20 per 100 (as one goal), hunter harvest percent targeted at approximately 15% (the next goal) and the philosophy of Maximizing “OPPORTUNITY”(the major goal) WITHOUT CAUSING RESOURSE DAMAGE as the corner stones for this management approach I see little doubt that we will drop as quickly as possible to the 10 bucks per 100 does in order to achieve more “HUNTER OPPORTUNITY” and I feel that we will digress from 15% hunter harvest to a lower percent to achieve “MORE HUNTER OPPORTUNITY”. • Short term we will appear to be HEROS by providing more tags and seeing more hunters in the field; in the long term resources will diminish and DECREASE IN PUBLIC VALUE, tags will disappear, hunter satisfaction will drop to all time lows and the perceived positives for “Recruitment and Retention” will turn 180 degrees towards the negative. • Recruitment and Retention; while GREAT and OUTSTANDING GOALS that I/we all desperately want to achieve at the highest levels will actually turn to dust. As I see this few currently active hunters and a much lesser percent of new hunters (especially youth) want to basically go for days enduring heat, freezing, loss of sleep and all the fun stuff related to hunting and seeing minimal wildlife and few or no harvestable animals/birds let alone having a reasonable opportunity (reasonable-defined by individual skills as taught in Hunter Education) to harvest the wildlife they are legally authorized to “take” IF they choose to pull the trigger. • When the value of the resources (wildlife) is diminished to the point it is has no real or perceived value to the public the protection of the Public Trust Doctrine is lost. There becomes a point/level that a resource(s) becomes of no value/worth, real or perceived, to the general public and when that occurs and the safe guard of the Public Trust Doctrine no longer applies; the North American Model for Wildlife Management collapses. With this loss of the Public Trust Doctrine and the North American Model for Wildlife Management the following are lost as well: management of wildlife for public benefit (The Arizona Game and Fish Department, as the managing agency), hunting, fishing and related activities basically are gone; most likely forever!! • “Emphasize small game, predator-furbearer hunting, upland and migratory bird hunting opportunities.” This has been the foundation for starting new hunter(s) into the life style of hunting and teaching the basics of resource management, ethics, safety, and dozens of other subjects for time on end. This is also the most under utilized “Opportunity” for family and individuals to experience, group/family hunting trips with minimal crowding, abundant wildlife and almost unlimited chances for seeing and harvesting a mixed bag of wildlife. This is an area where year around or almost year around “OPPORTUNITY” exists (limited only by imagination and effort) the Commission/Department/Valued Partners can organize activities (camps and such) to promote “Recruitment and Retention” of new and existing hunters. Heck these types of activity are fun not only for the participants but the Volunteers and Department Staff and participating sponsors and Commissioners as well. What a great way to spend some time in the outdoors hunting, making friends and having fun!!!! • “Valued Partner”- Cooperation with and the need for. At the Conservation Work Shop held in Payson on the weekend of June 9, 2007 the aspect of the Valued Partners (hunting-fishing/conservation organizations) working with the Department/Commission was mentioned frequently. The bottom line is with out the work we (Valued Partners) do: Banquet Fund Raising, Special Tags, Volunteer hours, fighting the political wars with Legislatures/others and all the other work we do the wildlife resources of Arizona suffer and the effectiveness of the Arizona Game and Fish Department is reduce drastically or disappears. How I feel is that the currently proposed Guidelines should have been cooperatively constructed with input from the Valued Partners and Public creating a working draft then presented through the structured Public Meetings for final comments prior to being presented to the Commission for Approval. There will never be a perfect program but this approach, in my opinion would go a long ways towards creating a more trusting and stronger working relationship between the public and the Department/Commission. HARD WORK YES BUT THE PAYBACK IS BEYOND MEASURE. It seems that the Department waits until the last legal/optional moment to make information available to the Valued Partners and the Public. In this case, the presentation at the Public Meetings contained information on major and complex changes. This was the first time most participants had a clue what changes would be proposed. This allowed no time for the participant as individuals to do any research or structure our thoughts so we could make positive suggestions. This also creates huge obstacles for the Valued Partners to make this information available to their members, get responses and to structure their comments, concerns and official position(s). The bottom line is the VALUED PARTNERS get blind-sided. At least this is how I feel as well as greatly disappointment that after all the work and support we give freely to the Department this is what we get in return. • Over the Counter (OTC) tags and Permitted hunts for Turkey and Archery Deer. While there are some potentially positive outcomes for this approach there exists major negative impacts to the wildlife, public relations and some basic ethic issues. Let’s start with Turkey; while harvesting up to or over 70% of the male population during a spring hunt(s) basically will not harm the resource’s ability to remain stable (or so some studies and biologist independent from the Department say) there exists conflicts: the approach of OTC (unlimited) junior tags with no change to current junior and general season structures (as I understand it) will have massive impacts on those who apply and have applied for a spring turkey tag and not been drawn, along with those that have drawn the tag waiting to have a quality experience “and” maybe have the chance to harvest a mature bird. A Biologist, not employed by the Department, commented that there will be major declines in the number of mature males within the structure of the flocks and species. I do not think this is what the hunting community thinks is good management for turkey and I feel that the non-hunting community would more than agree this management style would be detrimental to the value of the species. (ETHICS) This would put unlimited juniors in the field a week ahead of the general permit hunter and continue until the general season ended. Five straight weeks, the question is what future hunts species will be next? The next question is how would you feel as a person who has applies for years with certain expectations and then to have this situation occur? As I intend this for public distribution, I will add this; before anyone gets the idea I am against or non-supportive of junior hunting/shooting activities please taking the time to contact me or someone who knows me and you will find I have, do and will fight like heck for the youth. In the case of Permitted and Non-Permitted Archery Deer hunts my major concern is not to debate permitting or not-permitting the hunts but other issues related to this management proposal. I feel there is no doubt that with some units permitted and other units that border the OTC tags, the masses will migrate to the OTC units creating a negative impact on the Deer (and other wildlife species) of that unit, reducing the quality of the experience of the hunt with over crowding, increased conflicts between not only hunters but non-hunters as well. Especially, during Labor Day weekend. This type of management structure does nothing to comply with the Department goal of making rules, regulations, and hunt structures simpler or consistent. This philosophy was part of the reasoning that hunt start dates and such were changed in 2006 from what had worked well for years. As a member of several Organizations that are referred to as Valued Partners I wonder why I would request these Organizations to continue to pour their resources into major landscape projects helping in the effort to manage the land for increased forage and water to help wildlife populations increase when this management style can have major negative results. I will use Hunt Units 1 and 27 as an example. Unit 1 will be permitted and Unit 27 OTC. Data that is available from the Department will show that the Unit 27 deer herd has been on a down hill slide from the mid-1980’s. This has resulted in major reductions in tags issued, deer harvested, seasons combined, loss of hunter days in the field and more. This last February, I was invited to a meeting at the United States Forest Service Office in Springerville as a representative for a couple of organizations. The subject was the Washington USFS folks would be there in part to hear about the success that Frank Hayes (District Ranger, Clifton) and the project partners are having in a major landscape project that started small and has grown to tens of thousands of acres of thinning and burning (still burning as of a week or so ago) - (from approximately Juan Miller to the top of the Mogollon Rim at Stray Horse Canyon) and from thousands of dollars to over a million dollars and climbing. This has been so successful Mr. Hayes received a prestigious award from the Arizona Deer Association in addition to other National awards. This is and will be a role model for future projects not only locally and Arizona wide but has potential National possibilities as well. Now my fear is we will wipe this effort out by hammering the deer due to increase numbers of hunters and harvest. Think how this will apply in other areas of the State. • One thing we do need for timely distribution and response is all the information including potential length of season days, number of permits and time of year for seasons. None of these were adequately cover in this year’s process so far. The result is we are asked to provide comments without a full book of information. • I think I have covered these enough but please re-think how we go about this process; I feel it is time for a change. No more last minute distribution of information and develop a stronger working relationship with the Valued Partner and Public in general. • My suggestions; I will point out my views/ideas are not perfect/complete nor will everyone agree and that is fine, I just hope to stimulate a lot of though, expression of your thoughts and people taking action. I feel that the Department’s recommendations for all big species need to be tabled and we continue with what we currently have or revert back to the hunt structure of 2004-2005/2005-2006. There was nothing wrong with this structure and by doing this we will have time to get any future potential changes as near correct as possible. We can develop a relationship of cooperation in working from “brain storming ideas” to collectively selecting the top ones through a filtering process and then fine tuning them. We can work off each others strengths rather than picking apart the weaknesses. We can finally have open discussions concerning all survey structures, applicability and results that not only tell the simplistic check “yes” or “no” but really get into the complex “why of the question(s) as the information relates to survey results. We can set goals that work in the same direction rather than being 180 degrees apart (Maximize Opportunity vs. reduced harvest percent vs. resource stability/decreased {buck to doe/bull to cow ratios} vs. QUALITY OF EXPERIENCE, including ALL aspects of the hunt). We can develop good short term approaches for increasing tags, days in the field, quality of experience with the resources we have available while changing our long term focus to increased habitat, reducing the loss of habitat (conservation easements, land purchase), preparing the habitat we currently have for the best production of forage growth when we get out of the drought and making the best use of the moisture we do get. IF WE CAN’T FEED, WATER, SHELTER AND PROVIDE SPACE for wildlife we CAN’T SEE THEM, TAKE PICTURES, HUNT OR HARVEST THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Recruitment/Retention and emphasis on small game, non-game, predator-furbears, upland birds-migratory to me all go together. If we hang our future solely on big game them we will lose (UNDERSATEMENT). I started out hunting game, other than big game as many of have; I still have a great enjoyment for this segment of hunting. This will be an issue of cultural change and education in some respects. Maybe renewal of views and thinking is a better term. Us old hunters need to get back to our starting point and make the most of it with our families, other families and friends and take new folks. For true and real recruitment we need to get past those of us who hunt and our children, and into individual and groups of the public that don’t and won’t unless we take the lead. I have said for years and it seems like we are finally headed this way that we need to have programs that reach out to the non-user section of the public and now we are: the Scholastic Clay Target Program (SCTP), Arizona Archery in Schools (AAIS), Hunter Recruitment camps designed for the non/new-hunter to be shown the way and sponsored by non-conventional businesses/financial sources. We (Hunting/Fishing/Conservation/other groups, the Commission, the Department, and Individual Volunteers) are supporting and/or leading the way with youth camps across Arizona to help the youth and their parents during the junior’s hunts, we have scholarships issued by Hunting/Conservations groups, we have clinics to help old, new, youth and others prepare for their hunt. We have people bring non-hunting/shooting youth to water tank and other wildlife projects. LET’S NOT ONLY KEEP DOING THIS BUT MAKE THESE PROGRAMS A PRIORITY FOR ALL OF US AND EXPAND THIS TO GROUPS THAT ARE NOT CURRENTLY INVOLVED!!!!!!!!!!! I encourage everyone to speak your thoughts in a polite, respectful and well informed manner and to encourage all that you know to do the same; this will build strength and positive growth. JUST BECAUSE AN OFFICAIL DEADLINE HAS EXPIRES ON THIS SUBJECT ON JUNE 25, 2007 DO NOT STOP OR SLOW DOWN WITH YOU COMMENTS AND VIEW. THERE IS NO COMMISSION MEETING IN JULY AND THE “GUIDELINES” WILL BE SUBMITTED TO THE COMMISSION FOR APPROVAL AS SCHEDULED ON THE AUGUST 11, 2007 AGENDA. With this I will end this document; I encourage discussion as this is how we grow so below my cell and email are provided please utilize them. Sincerely, Blaine Bickford We are 20-50 years behind and cooperative, open and trusting. Teamwork is what will win the day. 602-319-8907 blainebickford@yahoo.com C.C: Duane L. Schroufe-Director, Arizona Game and Fish Department Steve Ferrell, Deputy Director, Arizona Game and Fish Department Open to the Public, Inter-net postings Open E-Mail to Hunting/Conservation groups, members and other

Just a reminder that the deadline to submit comments is June 25 (Monday). You can email comments to: azgamebranch@azgfd.gov I emailed some comments today and have attached that document to this email in case anyone is interested. Doug, I used your application stats, thanks for digging that up. Amanda comments_regarding_AGFD_hunt_guidelines_2008_2010.doc

Ok, IPB portal link is back up. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Amanda

Well, I haven't seen that one, but I am curious who has the white jeep with the sticker in Tucson. I keep getting reports of it since people think it was me. But my jeeps are black and maroon! Amanda

LOL!!!!!! Great one Bobbyo! Amanda

Did an upgrade to the forum software today. I will try and see if I can get it back up. Amanda

I think part of the problem is dwelling on the idea that the Sept bull hunts or Dec WT hunts are "trophy hunts". For me they are high quality hunts not just a chance to kill a big bull or buck. I love the Dec WT hunts because of the lower hunter density, the cooler weather and thus the deer are more active. I can't stand hunting when it's 80+ degrees out. Granted you get some hot days in Dec, but far fewer than in Oct and Nov. I hate feeling crowded on a hunt and like doug said I hate feeling like I have to beat someone to a spot or I won't get to hunt where I want that day. With the early season hunts, the hunter density is such that many conflicts arise. So for myself and many others, there is far more to a quality hunt than the idea of getting a big buck. Being able to hunt without worrying about bumping into other hunters and enjoying the cooler weather are a big part of it. Check out this graph that shows WT hunter satisfaction from the 6500 hunters who took the ADA survey last year. We asked people to rate their experience. You can see that people enjoyed the Dec WT hunt much more than the early season hunts. 81% of those who had hunted a Dec WT season rated their experience as excellent or good. If you select out only those who primarily hunt WT, then that percentage goes up to 88%.

Hi Tony, Looks like RR answered some of your questions regarding applicants. I don't have the answers to the rest of your questions regarding the sale of left over permits. Good questions. It would be interesting to know. However, I will continue to say, and I don't think you would disagree, that anyone who wants a WT tag in Arizona can draw one almost every year. You just apply for a unit and hunt season with 100% draw odds (or some are in the 90% draw odds range). That is what I did for several years so I could go hunting and get some experience with these little deer. Then I got a little pickier and wanted to hunt Dec WT in 24a. And I was happy to realize that I could draw a tag about every 2-3 years for that prime hunt. Not anymore. Now, in 24a, we have lost 95% of the permits for the Dec hunt (it was cut 90% last year, and that 10% remaining is now being cut to 5%). So now I have almost zero chance of getting a Dec WT tag in 24a. For me and many others who enjoy the Dec WT hunts the moves made in the last two years are a significant loss of opportunity. There are about 600 members currently in the ADA. And the ADA doesn't currently have an official position on the baiting issue, but of course we will be discussing it as the banning of salt seems to be coming very quickly. Amanda

email sent Thanks Ben. Amanda

Welcome Ben and thanks for letting us know about your water projects. I imagine we can get some volunteers involved for you. Several of us did one of those around Roosevelt lake earlier in the spring. Great fun! Keep posting in that wildlife project section of the forum whenever you have something you need help with. We have lots of talented folks around here. Amanda

Ron, No, you are not off base. That was one of our main arguments for trying to get AGFD to not cut the Dec WT tags in favor of creating more early season tags. Many of the early season hunts have 100% draw odds, so if someone just wanted to get a tag every year for WT they easily can get drawn every year for those units. Why cut prime Dec WT tags that are in extremely high demand to create more permits for the early seasons when those are not even filling up? I think the reason those early seasons don't sell out is because they are less desireable units. Again pointing to the fact that people don't just want any opportunity.... Amanda

It was over 1K for me too but I am only one person, not a small family! If I hadn't applied for buffalo, it would have only been a few hundred. I am, of course, expecting to get most of that money back. Amanda

The ADA held it's annual members meeting last night and one of our members sent in this letter regarding the hunt guidelines. The ADA will be taking the position of being opposed to the general push by the dept toward more "opportunity". The ADA statement is still being drafted. But the member who sent a letter into the ADA asked that I post his letter here, so I am doing so. He will be writing a lengthy letter and giving it to the commission and dept to make they know he is against these changes in the hunt guidelines. His suggestion is that everyone write in their comments as well and attend the commission meeting this weekend in Payson to voice your opinion. To the Officers and Directors of the Arizona Deer Association, Concerning the current "Guidelines for the 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 Hunting Seasons" as proposed by the Arizona Game and Fish Department I am requesting that the Arizona Deer Association take the position of OPPOSING in general the entire package. While there are items I normally would support and agree with there is not enough time to define them in this message. In general for the Big Game species I feel there will be long term negitive impacts in both quanity and quality. In Arizona we do not have ability to support vast numbers of big game animals (and wildlife) but our quality is world known and has great value beyond just financial. It is a value to the PUBLIC as a whole. I feel these proposals if put into practice will result in damage to the wildlife and to the goal of recruitment and retention of hunters so "OPPORTUNITY" will have no importance. Please accept this recommendation and aggressively encourage other individuals and organizations to take this position of OPPOSITION as well. Sincerely, Blaine Bickford 1-602-319-8907

I agree with you, the eyes seem to bulge out a little. But otherwise it looks like a great mount. It's hard to find a taxidermist that sees and recreates the animals in the same way you do. I am really picky and have stayed away from getting stuff mounted for exactly this reason Mark. I don't want to get a mount back and feel it doesn't look right to me. I have looked at a lot of taxidermists work and there are generally things I like and don't like about the way an individual taxidermist will mount a coues. My guess however, is that your taxidermist could fix this problem. I hear all the time from them saying "if you don't like it, let me know and we can adjust it". I think they have a way of removing the cape without destroying it, but ask your taxidermist and see. Amanda

There are two ways people can post photos one is to link to a photo already hosted on another website and the other is to use the forum software to upload and attach the photo to the post. I assume you are seeing photos that are done one of those ways and not the other. I haven't gotten any real answers from tech support. Their latest suggestion was to clear all the cookies out of your browsers and check your security settings in your internet browsing software. Perhaps you have to lower the security setting a notch to see the photos. Your computer may be blocking it. Gabe, you are saying you have the same problem regardless of the computer you are on, correct? Amanda

here is a page in the biology section that can answer your questions and probably several others. http://www.coueswhitetail.com/coues_biology/life_stages.htm Amanda

Doug, you might email your questions directly to Leonard or Brian. They should be able to provide answers. For those that want to get more involved, there is a ADA meeting tonight at 6:30 in PHX. I expect Leonard will be at the AZ Deer Assoc meeting tonight and those that have more questions can ask him at that meeting. here is the info on our annual members meeting. This is a good chance to come and see what the ADA is about. Arizona Deer Association Annual Meeting of Members Tuesday, June 19, 2007 • 6:30 pm University of Phoenix - West Learning Campus 9520 West Palm Lane Phoenix, Arizona 85037 From the east side take I-10 west to 91st Ave. Exit and go north to McDowell. Turn left (west) to 95th Ave. Turn right to Palm Ln. Turn left to UOP campus. Have caution when entering driveway, since dip is severe. From the west side take Loop 101 south to McDowell. Exit and go east (left) on McDowell. Continue under Loop 101. Access can be made at the first left prior to 95th Ave or at 95th Ave. Go north into the parking lot.

Thanks for the reports on the meetings guys. For those that weren't able to attend you can still send comments in by mail or email. here is the info from the AGFD website regarding that. But you only have until June 25 to send in written comments. Also there are a still meetings scheduled. (see below for meeting schedule) The proposed two-year hunt guideline packet is now posted on the department’s Web site at azgfd.gov. The department has scheduled a series of public meetings across the state on the proposed guidelines. Comments can be submitted at the meetings, or written comment can be submitted until June 25, either by e-mail to azgamebranch@azgfd.gov, by mail to Game Branch, Arizona Game and Fish Department, 2221 W. Greenway Road, Phoenix, AZ 85023, or by fax to (602) 789-3929. Remaining public meetings regarding the hunt guidelines: Yuma, June 20, Arizona Game and Fish Department Yuma regional office, 9140 E. 28th St. Kingman, June 20, Arizona Game and Fish Department Kingman regional office, 5325 N. Stockton Hill Road. Payson, June 21, the Payson Inn (the night before the Game and Fish Commission meeting there), 801 N. Beeline Highway (Highway 87). Page, June 21, National Park Service Headquarters conference room, 691 Scenic View Drive (just off Highway 89 between the Denny’s and the Maverick).